Trauma through the lifespan

We welcome our second special guest, psychologist, Dr. David Marcus! Dr. Marcus discusses his passion for child and family trauma psychology.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 1:18

And we have a special guest for you guys, Dr. David Marcus. He is a psychologist. He is a hero to people who are rearing children. And I would just like to introduce this man for just a moment, if you guys could give me a second. He's a Pennsylvania State graduate. He's pubished scientific documents. He's worked in psychology for 40 years. And he's a childhood trauma survivor. So, you guys, I told y'all we were gonna have some good information for you. And here it is, with in the form of Dr. David Marcus. Welcome to the show, Dr. David.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Storm?

SPEAKER_00 2:08

You like to ask to find out?

SPEAKER_04 2:09

Oh, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. I do. Yes.

Childhood Isolation And Music As Therapy

SPEAKER_06 2:22

Yes. Oh, yes. What what was your childhood? What was your childhood like, you know?

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Well, you know, there's a saying that nobody goes into mental health work uh without a reason. You know what I mean? And mine was because I had a a childhood with very little emotional communication with my parents. I was pretty much on my own. Even though I had siblings, we were all on our own, basically. It's it wasn't them. In in hindsight, I actually thought my mother had a problem. She just could not relate to people. And my father was working a lot. I mean, he cared about us. He really, really did. But he was gone a lot. And I, you know, and he had a hard time with my mother too. So he might have been gone a little more than he had to be, you know, that kind of thing. But so I grew up, you know, I was a short kid, you know, heavy kid, and not very much status, you know, I couldn't run fast and stuff. I was smart enough, but you know. And there was bullying involved, and I had nobody to turn to. And so you grow up, you go away to college, and you finally have to learn some social skills, you know what I mean, that type of thing. That was that was that was a tough period, at least my freshman year was. So I took up I I was a psychology major, but what I basically did was borrow my room roommate's guitar and taught myself how to play the guitar.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

I still do. In fact, I have a CD out of Irish music.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

I play the guitar, the mandolin, something called a tenor banjo, uh, octave mandolin, which is great, great big mandolin. And I've been I play in different bands, and yeah, it that's that's my therapy. That's my therapy.

SPEAKER_06 4:24

Wow. Yeah, music can be a derby to many people. Yes. Yes. So it's like when did you realize that traditional parenting tools was filled in, you know, filling families?

SPEAKER_02 4:38

But what kind of more typically we parent the way more art-evident to music that's a surprise that we took in from our parents. But what becomes almost automatic. What became more art-evident to me is what we took in from our parents. You know, it was almost automatic. Sorry, go ahead and Alfonso.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Oh, no problem. Go ahead. You know, okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Sorry, go ahead, Alfonso. Sometimes Trump. I'm getting that echo again. Okay. Oh. Well, yeah, sometimes Trump. I'm getting that echo again. Let me try that again.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

I'm still getting it.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Let me try that again. I don't think it's I'm still getting it. Sorry about that, everybody.

SPEAKER_07 5:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

I don't think it's her. You're not echoing, Michelle.

SPEAKER_07 5:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

I I am echoing here.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

You're echoing. Because I do not have noise cancellation on echoing here.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

Oh my god.

unknown 5:52

Oh well.

SPEAKER_06 5:52

Yeah, well, it just goes on. You can continue to talk, you know, Mr. Marcus. You can yeah.

Trauma Before Words And Therapy

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Okay, okay, that's fine. Call me Dave, call me Dr. Marcus, call me, just don't call me late for dinner, you know, whatever you but okay. Um sometimes trauma happens so early in life that we don't have the words for it before we're even verbal. But that doesn't mean it doesn't get in there. What I learned from talking with you know adults actually, over 40 years, is when they tell you their story. I hope this is being recorded. I it looks like it is.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Okay, great. The people would come and say to me their story. You know, they say, This is why I'm coming in. And invariably they would sit there and go, tell me something and say, I don't know why I feel this way, but I do. Or I know what I should do, but I can't do it for some reason. Or a big one is they'll tell me something and say, Does that sound normal to you, Dr. Marcus? And the reason for all of those is because they don't have the words. They feel it, but they can't explain it. So it's very hard to deal with something without using your mind. I mean, all you're doing is reacting at that point, you see. So a very wise supervisor of mine, I went I didn't go to uh Pennsylvania University, I went to the University of Louisville for my doctorate. But a very good supervisor of mine, he was the head of this this clinic that I was that I was uh working at, he once asked me, you know, uh David, what what what is therapy? And I rolled my eyes saying, okay, here we go. You know, what am I supposed to say to this big shot psychiatrist, you know? But I said, well, it's to help people, you know, I went into the usual spiel, you know, and he just shook his head at me and he said, No, no, David, therapy begins where the words run out. And that's true, if you think about it. If people could explain everything in a nice logical fashion to themselves, to for therapists, whatever, a counselor, they wouldn't need them. You know, it it would it would just be okay, I get it. And I'll figure out what to do about it. So a lot of the work that I've done with adults is finding the words. Right. Now that that helps parents sometimes because they're reacting to their children through these unspoken things, these unverbal things. You know, we parent the way we were taught to parent. No one sat down and taught us how to parent, we just take it in. It's a process called internalization, if you want the official term for it, all right? Okay. Internalization is sort of like almost subconscious learning. You're not aware that it's getting in there, but it is, you know. And one of the things that children internalize through you know experiences with their parents is how to react to stress. Okay. So if if a parent gets really angry and aggressive, you know, then their kids will be angry and aggressive when they're stressed. You see? And this is one of the reasons why abuse follows generations sometimes. I mean, a a child who is abused, who grows up and has their own children, will swear to you up and down and sideways that they would never do to their children what happened to them. But in moments of you know, unanticipated stress, and children are great at hitting us with unanticipated stress, they'll regress. That's what it's called. They regress back to these old patterns and they'll hit. And then it becomes a legacy. But there's other things that you can internalize, and that's what my book is about. My book is called Parent or X Parent Prescriptions, because the term that I use to help parents with this is a soothing presence. How do you become a soothing presence for your partner as well as for your children? All right. And this is a very important concept. Notice in its simplest form, a soothing presence is easy to guess. It's simply somebody who's okay

Internalized Parenting And Stress Reactions

SPEAKER_02 10:30

when you're not okay. If you think about the people that you may turn to when you're upset about something, they're usually specific people, friends or family, and invariably those people are okay when you're not. You know, they really are. And so what we do is sort of borrow their okayness for a while. You know, when we get from in here where it stays where it's intense or intense emotions, out here in a soothing presence who's okay with it, we can kind of get what I call a safe emotional distance from it. You know, we back away from it, and now we can look at it and maybe figure out what's going on and what then what to do about it. And that's a process. You know, I I call it the empty, you know, the filled up phenomenon, phenomena I can't say the word phenomenon, thank you. Thank you. And or and then the emptying out process, which is different than catharsis that I have to explain, you know, because everybody says, Oh, that's just catharsis, getting things off your chest. No, there's more to it than that. All right. Now we can get into that, but I'm trying to just talk about trauma and how it affects you know, people, you know. Uh and this once people seem to realize where they regress to when they're stressed, they begin to realize, hey, you know, it's not the other person's fault that we're arguing. It's tapping into something within me that makes me not responsive. All right. And that really helps couples. It really, really does. And it helps parents be better for their children. I need to explain this. Uh I use the term a soothing presence rather than a soothing person. And there's a purpose to that. The purpose is this you can't be a soothing presence if your whole world is chaotic. You're always just putting out the next fire or you're under stress all the time. You know? You need to create a soothing environment. That's the soothing presence. All right? It's not just you, it's what you need as well. I mean, I tell parents often, you know, the best gift you can give to your children is to be okay yourself. Because your children need you to be okay. And if you're not, let me explain. Children, it's not just something they want, they something they really need their parents to be okay. I mean, children are exquisitely in touch with their parents' feelings. If you pick up an infant and you're tense, they'll cry. You see what I'm saying? So, you know, you know, you can try to hide it all from your kids, but you're not going to be able to really hide it very well.

unknown 13:24

You know.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

You know, I talk to people about lifestyle. You know, it's much harder today than it was twenty, twenty-five years ago, because of social media, because of computers, because of cell phones. We can't get any distance, we can't get any personal space.

SPEAKER_00 13:43

This is not going according to the old days.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

You'd come home from the office and you'd leave the work at the office, you know. And but you can't do that now because there's a computer, you got a deadline tomorrow. And meanwhile, your children need you to be present for them and soothe them. You know, we expect a child, a young child, not to be able to soothe themselves, hence temper tantrums. You know what I mean? They experience their emotions very intensely. We all know this, any parent knows this. But how do we get them? How can we people teach them to internalize a soothing presence so they can soothe themselves, be able to speak what's going on. Now, in children that's called resilience. When a child can soothe themselves and deal with situations, that's

Becoming A Soothing Presence At Home

SPEAKER_02 14:40

resilience. What people need to realize also is that if the child is resilient and can be able to speak what's going on and have a soothing presence and they can take that in and can soothe themselves, well, in adulthood that's called stress tolerance. And that's a very important part of maturation. You know? So trauma can get in the way of that. You know, in a trauma situation where parents, let's say a high conflict couple, right? Well, they're too busy just dealing with their own stuff and what's going on between them and their partner to really focus on what the children need. You know. And so the children need their parents to be okay. I mean, young kids will their parents are yelling at each other, they'll go upstairs and shut the door. They just can't tolerate the tension. As they get a little older, six, you know, they take on a role. And this is the dangerous part for children in a traumatic situation, just like this. They'll take on the role of pleaser. You know, they'll try to please their parents, I hope that they won't argue anymore. Or the appeaser, that's another one, they'll try to appease the situation, you know. Sometimes the mediator or the placater, anything to get their parents to stop with all the tension in the house.

SPEAKER_06 16:16

Yeah, I done did that. Was it yeah, I did that in my I did that in my younger years, you know, when I was growing up in my elementary days, because my mom worked 11 to 7, and you know, I wanted her to be there. So, you know, I was struggling, I was a struggling reader. And so I said, I'm a, you know, I had a I had a teacher and she was a competition lady, and she she was like, she took me my son and she said, How bad do you want to upgrade your reading? No, I took her myself, and I said, Can I talk to you? And I said, I want to upgrade my reading level and I want to stay below. I want to get on my reading level and I'm gonna get them higher. So she helped me, and I'm feeling like I be pushing myself and showing my mom, look, you know, elevating, and I want to stay down here. I want to go and be up here. So I started, you know, I started doing stuff, you know, extra stuff in class, you know, when everybody was going to launch, going to recess, I was staying in the class so that I could elevate up here and not stay, you know, below everybody down here. So I was trying to applease my mom to show her, you know, hey, look, you know, I'm doing this, you know. Hey, take off, come, you know, come see me get recognized. But I look out in the audience and she's not there.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

And it's sad. I'm sure it didn't make you happy, you know. Children need that recognition. It's okay, everything I'm gonna be talking about is gonna require parents to be able to attend to their children. You know, how are you gonna be a soothing presence if you're not attending to your children? Right? I didn't get it, and that's why I made it sort of my purpose in life to advocate for children so they can get it. Even in high conflict situations, I've I've been involved with custody situations and you know, those types of things. Kids are getting destroyed, you know. And so I I've I've gone to court as an expert witness to advocate for these kids. It you know, sometimes I have to, you know, find Aunt Emily to take them or something like that. You know what I mean? Just something so these children have a chance. You know? It's true. If we get into a conversation about uh self-esteem, that you they you need parents to attend to you. Just in your own situation, what you just described is a perfect example of it. There are two types of experiences that oh, hi Alfonso. There are two types of experiences that first form and then maintain self-esteem. One is the mirroring experience, and that's what you were talking about. You just needed your mom say, gee, you're doing a great job. Right? Just to recognize, acknowledge the work that you were doing to improve yourself, you know. And you know, you do that enough. I mean, you think about it. The three-year-old's finger painting goes up on the refrigerator, the first trophy, the first report card, you know, all these things. What do children do with them? Look what I did, mommy, look what I did, daddy. And maybe you can picture this, especially with the picture. They hold a picture in front of their chest like this and say, Look what I did. And the next thing they do is look at your face. Always. Look at your face. What are they looking for? Well, I call it the gleam in your eye. You know, it could be the biggest mess of a finger painting, but gee, that's great. And you stick it up on the refrigerator, you know. Well, you repeat that all through childhood, like I said with the report card, you know, whatever achievement it might

Resilience In Kids And Stress Tolerance

SPEAKER_02 20:10

be, the child internalizes that. And that is the basis of what we commonly call confidence, which is part of self-esteem. The other part, which you haven't mentioned yet, but in my case, and probably in your case, because your mom worked all the time, it's the same thing, is called a merger experience. Or if you want the psycho-babble term, merger with the idealized other. How about? Isn't that cool? Merger with the idealized other. Are you impressed? Yes. And and what that is, is that children learn at an early age, usually just when they're finally ambulatory and can move away from you, that you're bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, and better at everything than they are. And they want to be able to do that, but they can't.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

So one thing they do is through play.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

You know, they'll play it being a mommy, they'll play it being a day or whatever. You know, obviously they can't actually take on the rigors of adult roles, you know, father, mother, fireman, whatever it might be, but they can through the f the f the buffer of fantasy, which is the play space, which is their imagination.

unknown 21:24

All right.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

The other thing, which is the self-esteem part, which comes from the parents, is there's a merger experience. This is the little boy who pushes the toy mower when dad's mowing the lawn. The little girl who's helping with Thanksgiving dinner. You know, they want to be part of it because it gives them a sense that I can do this stuff too. And that gets taken in as well. And that uh is the basis of what we call uh competence. I feel competent. And those two uh internalized experiences of yourself. should say. Confidence and competence. That's self-esteem. All right. We never outgrow, by the way, we don't outgrow the need for these experiences. All right. To maintain them, for instance, the mirroring experience in adult life would be your job evaluation. And we're very sensitive about it, what our vote evaluation says. You see, you see? The adult version of a merger experience would be a mentor. Your teacher was a mentor. She didn't do the work for you, but if she was pleased with you, you felt really good about yourself. That's a mentor. So you are fortunate to have her you see what I'm saying? Children need this stuff. It's not a matter of wanting it. They need it. And if your parents aren't present this way as a soothing presence like I said I talked to them about family circumstances for this reason, you know. You can't work 24-7 expect to be available to your children. You know what I mean? The best example is a type A personality who works enslaved 60 hours a week to provide support for their family with support being defined as look at this wonderful lifestyle I've provided for you because we have more money. Meanwhile the kids and the partner back home are saying where are you? We need you here. I don't understand. Look at the support well how do you define the word support? And this is sometimes what I have to do with couples because they'll define words like support, you know, companionship sometimes even intimacy differently and so they're not pleasing one another. They're not meeting each other's needs for these things because they're defining them differently. Yes. Here again we're finding the words sometimes this is this is the therapy part of what we're talking about here.

SPEAKER_06 23:52

All right but parents if they can establish this with young children although I talk about high conflict and I talk about teenagers as well of course but the earlier you start with this the healthier your children will be all right you need to be okay yourself and you need to be able to be okay for your kids yeah you have to be okay with yourself and you know with your with your children you know because even I found myself doing the same you know not exactly how my mom did but I found out you know like you said Miriam you you you the same

High Conflict Homes And Pleaser Roles

SPEAKER_06 24:40

thing that your parents did you kind of like and you want to break it and I did break the cycle somewhat because I couldn't show up for every award ceremony but I was trying to take off and be there here there you know and show that I wanted to be there and I did try to not just be really absent you know if they had a function at school be there. So my daughter played my oldest daughter played the viola so every recital that she had here yeah she played from the sixth grade to the 12th grade so for every recital she had me and her father was a part of that you know and we was there you know to represent to show that we cared and we was going to be there and when he could no longer show up she kind of like she had a she had a half sibling so he sent the sibling to show up to take pictures to record you know and because he was like I'm a former I'm trying to be there but the last show the last recital the final the final shebang shabi he showed up and he showed out you know great good you know this this is I explained the parents I'm not sure what to call you the table you have a pseudonym but what's your pseudonym again I'm sorry oh uh Storm Storm because I'm seeing your real name down there and I'm puzzles that you rather use the word you know the name Storm Storm but no you can call if you want to you can call me Michelle I'm fine you know yes so it won't be so confused yeah I see your name and I'll forget Storm and you know it gets embarrassing that's fine no it's it's fine it's just fine.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Okay thank you thank you no well I I explained the parents there's a big misconception here that I always have to deal with you know I don't like the term attention because it implies negative intention attention excuse me so the child Okay this is what happens let me just explain it make it simpler yes when I say to parents is look there's a difference between something that you want and something that you need and I use a simple example you may want oh I don't know a new van let's say but I don't have the money right now so I'll save up for another few months and maybe then I'll be able to buy a new van something you want something you need is like basic needs Michelle air food and water yeah now what happens to these needs if they're not met if you don't have air for three minutes can you just put it off until you can afford the next breath of air no you'll be deceased unalive you know two days for water three days for food you see what I'm saying yes no these starving the body it's not something you want it's something you need you know if you don't have air for three minutes that need's going to intensify to the point where the all you can think about is that next breath of air or that next drink of water you see what I'm saying well I explain this to to parents because you know I explained to them that emotional needs work the same way if they're not met they intensify a child needs to be in attended to for self-esteem reasons for developing an emotional language for developing resilience all the things we've already talked about and if they don't get it that need will increase and how do they show that because they don't have the words for it yet they behave they act out you see and they get more visible and more visible you know sometimes more obnoxious you know just whatever they need to get their parents to attend to them. Right? So they'll lose you know look even negative responses are better than no responses. All right so what happens here's the misconception go back to psychology 101 behavior modification well I don't want to reinforce this negative behavior that they're showing so I'll punish it or I'll ignore it. Right? Yes negative a negative response to negative behavior and the lesson that is assumed is that that they're gonna quote unquote learn their lesson and not do that anymore. Yeah well I'm here to tell you Michelle that if that worked if every if all behavior was that simple, all emotions were that simple, I'd be out of a job I mean it would be so simple to raise children and understand the world but that doesn't happen that way. Yeah it's not working yes it we're not built that way most of the uh the associations in our mind are emotional not logical okay they really really are we react to things we're human which is why I talk about a soothing presence rather than a soothing person. You can't do it without having a an environment that supports it so what happens you ignore it you punish it does that take care of the need no it just intensifies more and now what happens is okay you're you know with whether the tween is okay you're not you're not grounded for two days you're grounded for four right now they'll learn their lesson well that just makes you less available and you know the lesson isn't I did something wrong the lesson is is my mom's a jerk my dad is mean and if it's a teenager they're trying to treat me like a child by telling me what I can and cannot do. I'll show them they can't do that. So the lesson is totally lost you see I mean it it's not it doesn't work like you said earlier it just does not work.

SPEAKER_06 31:01

All right yeah I had a cousin yeah I had a cousin like that you know I would you know my kids were very structured and she had come out of unstructured settings so I had a cousin and I tried to do her you know like you say different behavior patterns you can't it don't work that way like you said you'll be out of a jar and no matter what I did to say hey if you don't do this I'm gonna take this I'm gonna do that it just

Confidence Competence And Self Esteem

SPEAKER_06 31:30

seemed like it just escalated you know it didn't break it down it didn't break it under it just escalated and I you know now that you explaining it now I understand why she did the things that she did you know and I think one day as a grown up I didn't even know that I was kind of like not escalating her you know not taking it above a notch you know she had done something I said hey you know you can't you know you're doing these things but you know for me you know can you can you just get back on your medicine you know can you for me can you just get back on your medicine I said can you you know get back on your medicine so that you can apply for your your social security you know your SSI because if you're not taking your medicine then you know they're not gonna you know give you what you want out of the situation and trusted or not believe it or not because of the way I came at her in a different level and I didn't say well because you're not doing this because you're not doing you know I didn't come at her on the other level I just said heavy for me. She did it she went back on her medicine she she got her she got her benefits you know and and I was happy about it because it really you know I was like I'm proud of you you know but because of the beh because of the what I did like would you just do this for me you know and I took a different approach you know I didn't try to you know beat her up about not doing this and not doing it I just said can you do it for me how old was she by the way when you did this she's she's uh at the time that I did it she was 20 24 25 when I when I talked to her now she's 2 28 yeah Alfonso yeah anyway reason I ask is because when when children hit adolescence we're getting that echo again Alfonso children hit that age their perception of themselves changes they are see themselves as an emerging adult which is true sometime between the ages of 12 and 19 they have to become adults which means they have to make well advised decisions now adolescents don't typically do that but if you do this the correct way and help them to think through their hard experiences and come up with a resolution to it that's resilience remember that's what it's called if you do that they can handle things like peer pressure they can handle you know and you've also made it safe for them to talk to you about it and be able to soothe them you see what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 34:28

So it fits with what you're saying what you did was rather than treat her like a child like I said once I hit teenage years they don't want to hear from you I mean they don't want to you know say hey you know look look I I raised my son and I remember that you know and but if you treat them like hey I'm approaching you almost like an adult do this for me you know we're on equal ground that makes them you know the the one thing that adolescents and young young uh adults want to be seen as is adults like I'm you know that they're valid as an adult and that's what you did. You said do it for me so you were actually empowering her if you to use a word hey you know yeah that feels a lot better than hey you're messing up do this now you're treating them like a kid again because you're telling them what to do. It's a it's a it's a tightrope we walk with it with you know diversion adults. It really really is you know the interesting thing is when my son was a teenager you know we'd have our little clashes too of course because he was a teenager and I was his dad you know and when I would give him advice that he did not want or did not ask for he would do the typical thing he'd roll his eyes like this and yeah if that dad's talking again you know that type of thing when he went away to college and he's established himself as an his own person basically he'd come home and of course I'm his dad so I'd volunteer this you know advice because I'm his dad even though I know better you know but okay and he wouldn't roll his eyes anymore he'd go like this he go okay and I knew exactly what he was thinking let the old man talk I got this covered you know and I'd laugh because I knew exactly what he was doing you know and we'd laugh you know but I'm his dad so you know you volunteer the information but okay you know I'm human too you know he's my he's my son I want to you know the the the ironic thing is it would be so much easier to be a parent if your kids could actually benefit from your experience and we do this a lot with kids oh I went through this too and I got through it by doing this you know sort of like misery loves company and take my advice and you'll feel better right it doesn't work no it don't work it on go ahead go ahead no it don't work it don't work it out well you know it's funny you know it's we do this our our intention is good don't get me wrong we're just trying to help but it doesn't help I mean you know dad tells his 15 year old son look don't go out and drink 12 beers I did that when I was your age and I ended up with my head in a toilet bowl you know don't do it right yeah what does this son do? ends up with his head in the toilet and dad says I told you that was going to happen you can bet your bottom dollar that grandpa told dad the same thing. We learn from our own experiences. Your job as a parent with an emerging adult is to help them to learn from their experiences because when you learn from your own experiences and can figure out what to do next we have a common word for that it's called wisdom your child has gained wisdom and that's a lifelong process. We're always thinking about gaining wisdom, learning from

Why Punishment And Ignoring Backfire

SPEAKER_02 38:10

our experiences. You've got to be a soothing presence you've got to be someone they can talk to and talk it through get that safe emotional distance from it so they can reason with it. You see? It fits together like this and the earlier you start the better it is you know when people come to me when their child is 15 16 years old not a child anymore by that time oftentimes the teenager says I give up on my parents and they'll turn to their friends or you know fortunately children have a have a a capacity and it's called elasticity. Okay and what elasticity is is if I can't get my emotional needs met from one source I can transfer it to another source like your teacher you know you transfer the we can do that and this is one reason why children really don't have much of a problem having two moms or two dads in a blended family. The problem comes in is when the parents don't don't call that woman your mom, I'm your mom. You see what I mean? Yeah. Well the child wants to please the parent but how do they please the parent? They can't talk to them about hey I had a good time with my stepmom because mom's going to get upset. And again children need their parents to be okay. So here's a child having to keep secrets and children are not good at keeping secrets. It makes them really uncomfortable you know young children especially you know and this is where I come in when I do like custody work and things like this because they're afraid to talk to either of their parents but I have ways to make I I become their soothing presence for a while. And they can talk to me and then I can talk to the parents and if I have to I'll talk to the court you know what I mean? Because these kids need an advocate. They need an advocate because especially in a custody situation side A is going to say one thing side B is going to say the exact opposite. And what's the court supposed to do with that? They don't know. You know they need people like myself or other counselors to really explore the situation and come up with recommendations based on reality not just on what one side's saying and the other side's saying so these evaluations are very exhaustive. You talk to teachers and babysitters and relatives and friends you do some testing you do a lot of interviewing it's it's a big process but it's a necessary process because you need it to be complete. You really need to get a grasp of the situation. So that's what I used to do but it was stressful work to tell you the truth and and I'm old now Michelle I mean I I I let somebody else do that you know because I I had I did my share I did 20 years of it. Okay you say yeah I I didn't I'm done I did my part you know and let somebody else take over now you know so you know but I learned a lot from it. A lot of the stuff I'm teaching today and what I'm talking about at least today and what I teach in the book at people who consult with me etc and one patients that I see is about this stuff. And there's one other thing that I really should talk about because it gets in the way so much. Can I keep going? Is that okay? Yes yes that's fine yes okay okay I don't if you have any questions or comments please shut me up because you're you're asking the questions yes you're asking no okay well interrupt me if I'm I'm warm with it I I enjoy doing these things and I can go off on a tear and I appreciate your patience with me.

SPEAKER_07 41:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Okay there's a phenomenon that I call being filled up all right what do I mean by that here's how I explain it. We all have an emotional space within us. It's not a real space it's a psychological space. And when we think about our emotions we usually point to our heart but actually it's associations in our mind obviously and this space can get filled up and what fills it up is intense emotion. You know anxiety fear anger you know the typical intense emotion. In fact in little children it can even be intense glee when they get this little toy and oh you know it's the intensity of the emotion that fills us up. And what I talk to people about and I'm trying to share I'm trying sharing with you, excuse me, is what happens when we get filled up. Well we know when we're filled up it feels intense it feels uncomfortable. Sometimes it's scary 'cause we don't really understand why we're feeling something so intensely. Some of those pre-verbal things that we talked about, for instance. You know and so what do we do? Well as human beings we focus inwardly and try to deal with how we're feeling. Now we may try to get it off our chest with a soothing presence or a friend. We may journal. We may go for a run just to get out the energy watch TV and distract ourselves you know go play golf, do you know do something but the point I'm trying to make is when we are filled up we're focused inwardly. So by definition we're not focused outwardly on what people are saying to us. The best example I can think of is what is typically called a blinding rage. Have you ever heard that term a blinding rage someone is so angry that they're delivering Actually blind to everything going on around them. You can give the most calm, logical explanation for why they shouldn't be so upset. They won't hear it. They'll hear maybe that 5% that somehow supports how they feel. And they may get angrier or more, whatever it may be, or your tone of voice that they didn't like, you know, whatever it might be. And the person who's trying to explain things just goes, it's like talking to a brick wall. And this is where the walls build up between people. Right? You see, uh in fact, we know when we're filled up. We absolutely know. We even have phrases that describe it. Like I've had it up to here. The straw that broke the camel's back. We know this is going on. How do we deal with it? You see what I mean? And until we deal with it, we're pretty much uh blind to what's going on around us. So the implication is they have a person needs to be emptied out of this before they can even hear any sort of logic about the situation. That's where the soothing presence comes in again. And how you empty somebody out. Like I said, it's not just getting it off your chest. All right. Would you like me to explain what I'm talking about here too? But I wanted to make sure your audience understood that that's what's typically going on, and that's what builds walls between people. And if you react to your children with that kind of defensive anger or whatever it might be, you know, the child will pick that up.

SPEAKER_04 45:38

And it's not safe

Adolescents Need Respectful Coaching

SPEAKER_04 45:40

for them to talk to you anymore. You see.

SPEAKER_02 45:44

So what do I mean by emptying out? This is all in the book, and I give examples of it. Parents says, child says, parents says, child says, and I annotate it saying, This is what you're accomplishing. I get very specific with the wording, which I can't get into here in this podcast, but yeah. How you phrase things, how you frame them is very important at different ages to empty somebody out of it. So what I mean is this where it's different than catharsis or just getting it off your chest is that it emptying out occurs on three different levels. Levels of emotional intensity. And I use a simple example to really explain what I mean. Okay. The most superficial level is the here and now. And we have lots of words to describe what's going on here and now. Well, the garbage needs to be taken out. Now we can explain why the garbage needs to be taken out. It's your job. The garbage man comes tomorrow, it's beginning to smell. You know, we have lots of words to easily explain this. The next deeper level where more of the intensity comes from is the history level. This is the sixth time I've asked you to take out the garbage and you haven't done it. Now obviously it uh the asking is going to be more of a demand, it's gonna be more intense. But if you were a stranger who just walked in and didn't understand the history, you might turn to that person and say, Why are you making such a big deal about it so they didn't take out the garbage? See, the logic begins to break down at that point. You don't understand the history. The deepest level is what I term the tap tapped into level. This one can go anywhere. The fact that you don't take out the garbage after I asked you to do it six times means you don't listen to me. I hate when people don't listen to me. When I was at home, you know, I I was always trying to get my mom's attention, but she wouldn't listen to me, and I hated that. This one can go anywhere in your history, right? And when you get into that tapped into level, the reason I use that term is because you don't make you may not even have the words to describe it's being tapped into, like I explained earlier. This is deep stuff, you know, and so all those levels have to be emptied out. For instance, the here and now is right there. I mean, you don't have to that's press it. The history level comes when you hear people say you always do this, so you never do that. Now they're referring to creepest events. Or you can even elist it and say, has that ever happened before? Okay. And the and the tapped into level is what is it like when not you know when Yeah, when you you're not listened to. And that can relate to all these other things, okay. Oh, I hate it when that happens. Well, explain word hate, because it's my definition is not your definition. And that's where parents get confused. The idea is to get them to say it, use their words. It's called a common emotional language, which we probably won't have time to talk about how to develop that right now. But that's what's necessary, all right? So that you're talking on the same level, just like you talked about earlier, right? So that's once they're emptied out and you mirror back what you heard. Well, I hear this, this, this, and made uh this has happened before, and this is how it's made you feel, uh blah blah blah. Okay. Do I get it? Yes, you get it. Now what have you accomplished? A, you've emptied them out. The other thing you have done, even though you're not realizing, is another word that we typically use, and it's called respect. You have shown this person respect. You see, you've heard them out. You say, no wonder you feel that way based on how you see it. Now you may see it a different way. But based on how you see it, no wonder. And here's the way the wording gets important, Michelle. Based on how you see it, no wonder you see it the way you now I may see it differently. When you hit your brother, it's my job to make sure that you're both safe. So I can't have you hitting each other.

SPEAKER_04 50:03

But now he can hear you because you've heard you heard him out.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

You've uh emptied him out. You've respected his uh emotions, even if you don't you don't approve of his behavior, but you've respected his emotions. And you've made it uh impossible to him to get it from in here to out here in your soothing presence. You keep repeating this over and over again, they internalize it, stress tolerance, and the wonderful legacy is they'll do that for their own partner and their own kids. This is why I'm so adamant about uh what I do. Why I've dedicated to this for like 40 years, because it's so necessary, you know. It's truly one of the most important parts of grazing children. And getting along with your your partner too, if you think about it.

SPEAKER_03 50:56

You know.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

So um, you know you know, uh partners need to define words the same way. Partners need to understand what they regress to, partners need to know how to empty each other out and be a soothing presence for one another. And you can have a soothing presence in your home. See? It all comes together. If you want to break the pattern of you know neglect or whatever it might be, that's how you do it. Yes, this is a different thing completely. Yes, I'm giving you my nickel tour of the nice process what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_06 51:39

Yes, it was a lovely, nice tour that you gave us because every question that we had that we was gonna ask you, you actually answered them all, you know. Because yes, because we were gonna say, can you walk us through feel a little bit empty out? You did that, you know. And so the some, you know, things that we had questions, you know, you was like, I was like, you was on it. Yes. And it was a nice, awesome, you know, it was awesome to have

Filled Up Feelings And Emptying Out

SPEAKER_06 52:10

you on the show. Sorry about the you know, the technical difficulties, but that's why he had me here as a co-host, because he knows that I'm gonna keep the show rolling.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

I feel bad for Alfonso. We had a good conversation before, but technical difficulty.

SPEAKER_06 52:28

Yeah, but he loses it. We wanna thank you for being here. You know, thank you for coming and taking time out your busy schedule to come and be with us on Terra Trump, you know. And, you know, we always tell our people it's a beautiful day. You know, you all are beautiful, you know, in your own way, because, you know, that's what we try to do. We try to specialize in childhood trauma and get to the bottom of it, you know, and we know that people have, different people have gone through different experiences, you know? And everybody's experience is different. So, you know, my experience is not your experience, your experience is not my experience, and in a soul, it's whole L. He has his own, you know, experience. So it's to get to the bottom line and let people know it's many different days out there, you know, that you can go through, you know, like you explained a lot, like, you know, what is, you know, what parenting tools are, you know, how to come at your kids, you know, itself punishing them, you know, punishing them, you know, you know, saying taking stuff away or whatever, you know, how to meet your kids on a level. So you being on the show, it teaches parents how to comment their kids in a better way, you know, instead of, you know, taking things away and thinking that that's the way to parent, you know, because that's what we were taught. You know, we got things taken away from us, or we got a little pet, you know, we got some little dream for pops or whatever. We got the little whooping. You know, it just depends on the different parents, what they did. But today's today's youth is very different, very different from how baby boomers and Gen X were raised. So this next set of groups, people that are under us, they're a whole different, they're on a whole different bowel game.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

So the different stresses that we're not.

SPEAKER_06 54:27

Mm-hmm. So, you know, how do you, you know, how, you know, just all around, how do you feel about, you know, everything, you know, just summing it all up, you know, you know, with the parent and the childhood trauma, the, you know, everything, you know, you know, summing it up.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

Well, you know, summing it up is this, you know, the things that we talked about in the show, all children need. All children need this, all right? Generation, generation, generation. Well, we're talking about a soothing presence and developing emotional language and resilience and stress tolerance and you know, emptying out. All this is human nature. The difference is the stresses that kids are under these days. You know, social media is a stress. You know, it really is a cyberbullying, all that kind of thing. Pressure that they're under. A lot of school pressure, for instance, you know, achievement-oriented families, for instance, you know. I've had to talk to a lot of parents about, hey, you know, your child should not be, you know, all male sports-oriented college prep school, even though your family's always gone to that school. They're artistic, they they need something different than this culture. I see a lot of teenagers who are very stressed because they've got to be, you know, get out straight A's, take advanced placement courses, have the lead in the school play, and be the quarterback on the football team. You know what I mean? No wonder they're coming to say me. You know what I mean? It's silly, you know, it's actually silly. Turn the parents and say, hey, this is your son, your daughter. They don't need this. They need to be able to be social, they need to be able to grow into their own be all their own person and not just meet your expectations. You see what I'm saying? A great example, and I'll I'll finish with this. I saw uh Can I give you one more example, Michelle? Is that okay?

SPEAKER_04 56:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 56:26

Okay, thank you. I saw two children, this was many years ago, like twenty years ago. A ten-year-old boy and his eight-year-old sister, and their parents were divorced and always arguing. You know. And he took on the role of the pleaser to protect his younger sister from his parents arguing. Right? And I worked with the family and things got somewhat better, and then you know, it was over, you know. He came back to see me as an adult fifteen years later. Now he was a nice guy. Had a good job, smart, you know, he he was establishing himself as a young adult. The reason he was coming to see me is because he was in a relationship with a woman who I guess you could call was high maintenance. I mean, she kept making demands on him and never he could never please her. And he felt empty. He felt empty. All right. So, Dr. Marcus, you know, well, believe it or not, I still had the notes from when he was ten. Everything goes on the computer these days. And I said, you know, we talked about it, and I said to him after like a couple of sessions, he told me what's going on. I said, Do you realize you're playing the same role with this woman as you did with your parents? You're being the pleaser. You're trying to please them. And just like with your parents, it did not work.

SPEAKER_04 57:52

You see?

SPEAKER_02 57:53

And he went, Oh my goodness, you're right. I'm doing it again. And he didn't realize it, but that's what he knew. But the reason he felt empty is because I call it a not me situation. He was playing a role. He couldn't develop him. Now he was as an adult, finally. But there was this gap. There was this emptiness that he felt.

SPEAKER_03 58:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

You see. Once he realized this, he got out of that relationship. And I said, good, you know, yeah, because really she sounded really hard to deal with. Found another very kind, soothing woman. Got married, they have a kid now, they have a house now. They're fine. But he didn't realize that he was repeating the same thing over again because it began when he was like two, you know what I mean? He just never realized it. And his eyes went this big when he realized it, I have to tell you, Michelle.

SPEAKER_04 58:53

You're right.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

No one feels this way. See, it ties in with what we've been talking about. Earlier you start, and you know, the book is directed a lot toward young parents for this reason. Because in what I'm talking about, and you've heard that phrase, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. What I do, an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. Because, you know, all these different things that can get in the way of helping your child to develop emotionally. So there's a lot more. I mean, we could talk about discipline versus punishment. There's there's all kinds of things we could we could still talk about, and especially the how-tos of doing this, you know. I'm giving a little bit of it, but that's what the book is.

SPEAKER_06 59:38

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

That's what it's like.

SPEAKER_06 59:40

Yeah. But minus the technical difficulties, we would love to have you back on Tierra to Trump, you know, if you don't mind coming back, you know, reappearing minus the technical difficulties.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

I'm trying to I'm creating a platform for the book. That's what you need to do to sell a book these days. And like your people like yourself, people are asking me back, which is very gratifying, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

That's why I've done so many of these things because people say, hey, you know, that guy seems to know something. Let's have him back, you know, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

Which makes me feel good, you know. But it's 40 years of experience, you know, it's 40

Final Example Book Website And Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

years of saying, what's really going on? You know, learning from the people that I've seen. That's what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:29

Yeah, you can also, while you're here, you know, you can also tell the audience about your book again so that they can go pick up the book. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:37

Well, the book is in the process of being published. It's not out yet, okay?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

The book is called Parent RX, Parent Prescription. That's the main title of the book. Oh, wow. Isn't that a cool title? My agent thought of that. But anyway, and but they can go to my website and see a lot of these podcasts, for instance, you know, where I talk about this and other things. And that is www.parentrx.org. Parentrx, one word. P-A-R-E-N-T-R-X.org. Or they can contact me if they want to consult with me or anything like that. And that's D-S-Marcus, D-S-M-A-R-C-U-S, P H D. Well, one word, D-S-Marcus P H D at parentrx.org. And they're welcome to give me a buzz and stuff like that if they want to know more. But I appreciate your having me on. I really do. And thank thank Alfonso too.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:37

He's out there someplace. He's as a matter of fact, he's been putting up ticks, you know, telling the people, you know, thank you, you know, thank you. You know, he's been putting up ticks in where they can read your book yet, you know. They because as soon as you said the the uh soon as you said your your website, he put it up, you know. And you probably couldn't see it, but I could I could see it popping up. It's yeah, so he's he's uh he's he's here, it's just that he's not on the screen. So yeah, but he put it up. And we thank you for we thank you for being a part of Tiara to Trump today. And everybody, thank you for tuning in to uh listen to Dr. Marcus speak. And we'll be glad to have him as a host again. You know, being with us on Tira to Trump and wanna tell everybody thank you. And make sure that if you have anything, you know, none of the pay bills, you know, go to wwwplsymporium.com and you know check out the merchandise. Everything counts itself across the corner. So yeah, I'm gonna remember, and then we'll see. We broadcast across everything from Brawl Sprung to Riverside and YouTube, Facebook, TikTok. So we on a lot of different platforms, Spotify, Spotify, Apple Pumpcast. So we we on a lot of different sites. So tune in, and whatever site is closest to you or dear to you, you can find us. And thank you. Thank you, Dr. Marcus for that. Thank you for being on Territory Trump. We wanna say thank you, everybody.